No crash/hang, but after a while no keyboard keystroke is working

[OldskoolOrion]

Hi :-)

I'm using the latest x64 version (install-package) v7.1.2347 and I notice weird, for me not instantly explicable behavior.
My settings are out-of-the-box plain vanilla, with NC-styled shortcuts for function-keys etc. I have not changed a usersettings yet, besides turning on all logfiles.

Using MC extensively for a random amount of time (had it work perfect for 12hrs+ - had it happen after 3m), at some point MC stops reacting to any key press / function key or combination which should invoke the standard commands. MC is NOT crashed or unresponsive !! Working with the mouse clicking the commands or in panels or menu's, does what one expects. But not when controlled / initiated by keyboard.. not in explorer panels or menu or whatever.. EXCEPT.. when I put the focus on the command line bar by clicking it.. and I type text... flawlessly the typed text appears. In all other programs I try on this Win10Pro (x64) machine, the keyboard works with not hitches or unexpected behaviour whatsoever.

I turned on all logfiles (all type informational - switching to debug logging), but searching thru the 42MB of log files of my filemanagement work over the past 3 days, nothing really strikes me as abnormal. No errors reported either.

Two lines I'm not exactly sure what is meant with :

In MultiCommander logs I sometimes see (other times its way less messages of type id f140-0) :

2017-05-17 14:26:37.845 System broadcast message received : id : f140 - 0
 + 233 x same id f140 - 0 message + between the start time above and the time of next line
 2017-05-17 14:30:31.845 System broadcast message received : id : f140 - 0
2017-05-17 14:30:32.845 System broadcast message received : id : f170 - 2
2017-05-17 14:30:32.847 System broadcast message received : id : f140 - 0
2017-05-17 14:30:37.844 System broadcast message received : id : f170 - 2

Highly doubted that these messages are connected to what I experience.. because that was NOT one of the times the keys stopped being responsive.. the time it happened after that time yesterday was around 20.00 at night.. several hours later : I would like to know what these id's mean if possible tho :-)

All the management work are the basics : edit, rename, but mainly, F5, F6, F8, tab. Work split over up til 6 tabs left and 6 tabs right (MAXIMUM).
I have more than 12GB RAM free and no issues in speed or responsiveness : not local drives, not networked drives.

My keyboard is not the most standard one (Logitech G19 with Color LCD and 12 Macro Function keys extra), but I've been using this keyboard for years and years and (altho the gaming software is bloated), the Logitech driver for the keyboard itself is proven to be really stable over lotsa years. Since keyboard exactly works like it should in other programs etc, I'm not expecting it to be the keyboard, but will not rule it out completely either.

I will set all logging to maximum level for coming test-periode and see if I can find out more.

Would making a process-dump be useful the moment it stops responding to key-commands, but still being able to type in the command bar ?

I really REALLY want to keep using MenuCommander, since for me it's the one that gives me the best NC-in-DOS-days-feel, combined with exactly the info I want on screen.. and I've tried pretty much all clones/competitors. But it's completely depending on being able to use it with the keyboard only as key usage component of course since that's the true power, besides working with 2 panels and multiple tabs in them each.

Anyone any idea where to look for the solution to this "problem" ? Any insights are appreciated :-)


* turned out to be a long story, but I wanted to describe it as clear and complete as possible, since searching the forums didn't turn up this behaviour yet.. I'm sorry for the long read *

[OldskoolOrion]

UPDATE !! Might have found the trigger..

Had it twice in a row in a short time now.. twice exactly after hitting backspace to go to parent-directory / 1-up... it actually goes 1-up but no more keypresses like explained before are "recognized".. nothing about it shows up in detailed debug-logs, so I can return those to a more comfortable "information" level.

Seems to be on a random backspace occurrence, since I use that key a whole lot, as did I before it suddenly happened after that particular time.

[Mathias (Author)]

I don't now why that is happening for you. I have MC running for week without a restart, and never seen anything like that.

So something must comes in conflict and hijack the "keypresses",  I know some 3rd part hotkeys apps can do that do.

the "System broadcast message received" message 140/170 is just messages for Monitor Power Off, and Screen save on/off messages.

There is no logging around keypresses since that would be a very very talky log and also because there have not really been an issue around it.

Is it every key. even tab? (navigation keys) or only hotkeys for command ?  Can you navigate up/down the filelist ?

[OldskoolOrion]

It's every key in that case.. also TAB & arrows and ENTER since I cannot traverse the filelist or even go a directory up when I put focus on ".." (using the mouse) and hit Enter.
So the problem touches every key with the exception of the command bar.. setting focus to that with mouse, I can use any key I like and it produces output.

I have no special memory-resident hotkey tool running besides the earlier mentioned Logitech software and that isn't really a hotkey tool.. afaik Logitech Gaming Software v8.92.67 does not touch any key but the additional extra macro keys on my keyboard and that is solely to give them a function or value. I'm sure more people will be using it which don't have the problem at all.

I noticed that quitting the moment it happens still keeps the MC process running (with no visible window) and diving into the threads it is using it's clear something IS hanging and actually fills 1 core up to 100% usage. I made a dump of that hanging process, but am not really great at using windbg myself, to see what is actually causing it. Bit silly I didn't notice before : probably since I was starting new session asap to continue my filemanagement tasks.

There isn't -by any chance- an internal function/command resetting the key-handling to initial state -like it is when starting MC- I could assign to a user command I can drop as button on one of the bars? (hehe it's far fetched by no harm in asking of course).

I would hate it for you to put in even more effort, since it is basically just me having this problem, meaning it's basically not worth the effort to put much time in. So I didn't upload the dumpfile yet.

If there isn't a reset switch I can pull onto the bar to hit with the mouse - as much as I dislike it, because I truly love your program because of design & usability, without going overboard and bloated out of the box - I will have to start using a competitor, because in the end.. it IS still about functionality and I'm sure that's the reason you started writing MC in the first place :-)

Thank you for your swift answer so far ! Greatly appreciated !

[Mathias (Author)]

That is very strange., I never seen anything like that.
Since no keys works and not only special keys or hotkeys then it really sounds like something is stealing/blocking the keys from reaching MC

There isn't -by any chance- an internal function/command resetting the key-handling to initial state -like it is when starting MC- I could assign to a user command I can drop as button on one of the bars? (hehe it's far fetched by no harm in asking of course).

It does not work like that, there is nothing to 'reset', When you press a key. Windows will sent a message to the window in focus that key 'x' is pressed.
MC do not listen to any keys it self actively.  It is Windows that tells MC that a key is pressed.

No a dumpfile would probably not say why happening. Since I don't event thing the key press messages are reaching MC.

This most be unique for you setup, Try with a different keyboard.. or it happens try to disconnect/reconnect keyboards.- Windows will reinitilize driver for it them.
Because it sounds like a keyboard driver issue or something like that.

[Jungle]

Do you remember, Mathias, I mailed you about similar behaviour. It is easily reproducable. All you need is launch some exe and get the following window (see pic). While the window is shown go back to MC and you'll see that keyboard navigation is broken. After closing that window MC is OK again.

Maybe something else can cause such behaviour.

P.S. The window on the pic is "Open File - Security Warning" dialog. It seems to be system warning. It can be enabled/disabled in the Internet options (in IE or Control Panel). Option name is "Launching Applications and Unsafe Files".

[Mathias (Author)]

it is not the same because then you have a process that is launch that is awaiting input, and since MC is waiting for Windows to continue and start the process or cancel it,the Main Ui is blocked, until you tell windows what you want

[Jungle]

OK. I launch something that is not visible but acts like that process/window. Is it the same now?

P.S. BTW when I launch the same exe in other file manager, that security dialog is shown modal.

[Mathias (Author)]

It is Windows that shows that dialog.

Here the keys are stopped without anything being launched

[Jungle]

1. I told that it is similar behaviour. But personally I think that both cases have the same root.

2. Open Windows Explorer window and launch such exe (in my case it is GoogleChrome portable from portableapps.com). Security warning will be shown. Now try go back to Explorer window. It is impossible because warning dialog is modal.

Now launch that exe in MC. Warning dialog is not modal for some reason.

[OldskoolOrion]

I disabled that behaviour (so there should be no invisible window/process blocking my particular setup). I think this is different in that way, since I can put focus on the command bar and use keys in there.. just not the rest of the program. In your stated case this is probably not possible if I remember working of security popup and claiming focus correctly, I think.
I'll investigate if there is maybe something in Windows 10 LIKE this security functionality that may cause this. I cannot rule it out that there is, since I mostly focussed on processes dealing with Multi Commander itself and the working thereof.

I used group policies (gpedit.msc) in Windows to disable blocking because of security warnings for internet downloaded content and other security messages like it, and double checked correct working via authoring rules. It is correctly disabled for me, according to Windows.

@ 1) Mathias : it MIGHT be something in Logitech's software - I cannot reproduce the behaviour (and I used it for hours and hours to test last 2 days) with another keyboard and the latest Logitech Gaming Software unloaded. It just didn't happen up til now, where I can easily reproduce it with the Logitech keyboard and drivers loaded. So it seems to be either hardware-related (keyboard itself) or logitech's software (driver).
I will download several older versions of the software to check if this behaviour still happens. Worth the little investigation since it's taking me hours already ;-)

2) I already assumed you didn't hook into the key-events and just let windows handle the keypresses for the program/window in focus. It didn't hurt to ask to be sure tho, since some programs hook into it and have their own handling routine. Investigating thru process hacker + sysinternal tools already showed me this would prolly not be the case :-) now i know for sure.

[OldskoolOrion]

Shame I can't plus both your efforts / answers to show appreciation. Consider both of you appreciated for thinking along what might be cause/solution. :-)

[AlanJB]

@OldskoolOrion

Have you tried installing MC portable into a new folder, make no other changes whatever and checking if you see the same results?

If you see the same results, you have (IMHO) to suspect the keyboard drivers.  If you do not see the behaviour, it has to be something in the way you have configured MC (probably).

Just my 2 cents...

[OldskoolOrion]

Something I can try (and will), but I won't get my hopes up, since it already happens with vanilla out of the box settings after installation.. only settings I changed were logging settings and that was only after I started noticing the issue.

I'm pretty sure by now it has to do with my Logitech G19 or it's drivers.. a plain old (and disgusting looking) cherry keyboard hooked up with driver disabled and logitech disconnected and I didn't experience the issue once.

Being a heavy keyboard shortcut user I really grew attached to the extra 12 macro keys tho.. so there is no good solution.

Then again.. its not like I'm dying either.. it's a nuisance I'd like to see resolved at some point, so I downloaded 4GB worth of archived drivers from a logitech ftp.
I'll be trying different versions this weekend and see if I can hit the sweet spot :-)  Crappy boring job, but worth it in this particular case.

A big positive is all the pieces of food I keep finding when I turn this cherry keyboard upside down.. it's hella gross.. man.. was I a pig back in the days

[AlanJB]

@OldskoolOrion

These may be of interest:

  https://www.tenforums.com/drivers-hardware/45299-logitech-g19-interfering-other-hardware.html

  http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/answers/id-1973886/logitech-g19-keyboard-keys-dont-work.html


Yeah - keyboards make great (if unwitting) forensic tools!  I now know exactly what my grandson eats most of when he's at my PC

[OldskoolOrion]

@OldskoolOrion

These may be of interest:

  https://www.tenforums.com/drivers-hardware/45299-logitech-g19-interfering-other-hardware.html

  http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/answers/id-1973886/logitech-g19-keyboard-keys-dont-work.html

Thank you for those links ! They are already helpful :-) There is hope now :-)

Yeah - keyboards make great (if unwitting) forensic tools!  I now know exactly what my grandson eats most of when he's at my PC

LOL  -  maybe also a incentive for me to swap keyboards - even if the better ones with extra functionality are expensive - a bit faster instead of keeping hacking at it for this many years, unknowingly what monster might be growing in there :-)